Rule Discussion & Questions

Find the server's rules and regulations here. Ensure that you stay up to date with the rules before entering the server.
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Curly The Infamous
Posts: 101
Joined: August 2018

Re: Rule Discussion & Questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:29 am

I like most of your answers but let me just point out the ones I have a problem with, from the outside looking in. But not a deep rooted problem. I only look out for the progress of the server while I bring this up.

For number 3, the answer to "Should admins be held to the same behavioral standard as players?" You answered yes, which is the right answer.

For number 4, the answer to "If I, a player, call a staff member corrupt, without being able to articulate or prove why, does it make it so? " is no. Which is the RIGHT answer.

But for number 5, the answer to "If an admin tells a player he has a bad attitude, but can't articulate or prove how, does it make it so?" your answer was: "Depends on the context, if you're screaming at an administrator because you didn't get what you want while people are trying to have a discussion, then listen to them and stop ." How come the answer isn't just "No" like it is for number 4, if as admitted in question 3 admins should be held to the same behavioral standard? In other words, if an ADMIN is screaming at a PLAYER because the admin thinks "what he says goes, end of story, my word over yours" while the player is simply trying to explain himself or discuss something, should that admin STOP and listen to the PLAYER? That's what I mean.

So if the answer to number six, "If an admin tells me, the player, I have a bad attitude, without explaining why, am I in the wrong for not entertaining that negative subjectivity?" is the same as number five, you're saying that again, it depends on the context. However, if I ignore everyone else who says I have a bad attitude but doesn't have any actual proof, can I ignore an admin who makes such a claim without evidence? That's the double standard I'd like to address. Again, NONE OF THIS, is an attack on the server or anything like that, just wanted to iron out a few wrinkles before I start putting all my eggs in this basket.

Number 7, the answer to "Should we punish admins who behave poorly, especially by their own standard?" was originally "Staff members must follow the rules too, obviously." So when I said "Good answer. So we can expect them to be punished the same way a player would, should they get caught up breaking any rule a player would initially be punished for, right?" It's still "yes" but "we should realize the context." I do believe we should realize the context of ANY situation, especially player-admin interactions.

For number nine, your answer to "Should IC and OOC ever mix AT ALL?" was "IC is IC and OOC is OOC, administrators obviously can change the course if rules are being broken." So I said "You make a good point, yes a ban or an admin punishment can prevent a person from getting in game and getting in character, but for example- would banning the leader of a faction be just cause to shut a faction down? That'd be mixing IC and OOC wouldn't it?" You're saying "An admin won't ban someone just to shut their faction down but if they are banned for what-ever reason, the faction members need to work with faction management to decide who gets the leadership & thread. If the guy isn't there and no one wants to lead the faction, it can't be "NPC'd" or we can't unban him just so he can run his faction again." So here's the issue. I've been through this situation in other communities, not to say it'll happen here- I certainly hope it don't, but who knows- anything can happen, now- for argument's sake, say I run a faction of 30 people. Im the boss, ICly. You ban ME for my attitude. Because a ban is an OOC thing, nothing actually changes ICly, if IC and OOC should not mix. ICly, I'd still be the boss, but I can't get in game because I'm banned. People WOULD HAVE to NPC that person, until an actual in character change is made. Bans should not affect the IC organization of a faction. Again, I'm not saying don't ban rulebreakers, ban them by all means. But when someone turns around and makes up a story like "he's still running the faction" and uses some half assed proof, ten days later, to use as ammo to affect the 30 people who DID NOT break the rules, do you consider that fair? I don't think that's fair at all. And what I'm doing by bringing this up is trying to prevent that from happening to me or anyone else who is here to put forth a serious creative effort.

For number 10, I asked "Does a ban (An OOC issue) take in character effect? (An easier way to word this would be, if a person gets banned, should it change the roleplay AT ALL?)" Your answer at first was: "Generally no but this depends on the context." So when I said "you don't mean that factions can be shut down for the attitude of one player, right?" you're essentially responding with "An admin won't ban someone just to shut their faction down but if they are banned for what-ever reason, the faction members need to work with faction management to decide who gets the leadership & thread. If the guy isn't there and no one wants to lead the faction, it can't be "NPC'd" or we can't unban him just so he can run his faction again."

The faction members shouldn't have to work with faction management to fix the thread or the organization of the faction. They should work it out among themselves but when they're done, they should let faction management know. With the mentality that admins deserve more trust than players, we give the admins more room to be destructive to the community as a whole, and I literally watched this become the demise of another community. I'm just trying to prevent that here.

I really do appreciate your answers and I hope absolutely NONE of this comes off as an attack. All I aim to do is bring forth progress and a better environment to roleplay in.
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Sparx
Posts: 91
Joined: May 2018

Re: Rule Discussion & Questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:52 am

Curly The Infamous wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:29 am
content

I really do appreciate your answers and I hope absolutely NONE of this comes off as an attack. All I aim to do is bring forth progress and a better environment to roleplay in.
Don't worry, we know it's not an attack and we appreciate the questions. We get that you still have some quarrels with GTA W and how they administrate, but we're all experienced here and come from pretty in-depth backgrounds - so although having this discussion is good for general roleplay discussion mumbo jumbo, it just seems like it's your own issues that you're bringing forward here when really it should be getting sorted with another community. There's no reason to expect the same outcomes here when we've not even opened yet.

Golden's answers are pretty spot on in terms of how we'll be conducting business. Everything you have mentioned is very contextual, from which we can't give you definite "Yes" or "No" answers (apart from those that are common sense). Whilst, in a completely non-toxic, shining community you would have these "Yes" or "No" answers - it's not how it'll work here, there or anywhere else for that matter.

To just reiterate some of your responses, because it's quite a big wall of text - I'll just give you fairly straightforward responses to your "problems" that's realistic and apposite for a video game roleplay server.
  • 5.
    • On a good day, with a roleplaying servers life-span, you can potentially see hundreds of thousands of unique players hopping onto a server. Take LS:RP for example, the unique count for that server is really large - so context really does matter with this question as Golden mentioned. You'll have maybe 10% of your playerbase who are bad apples, unable to co-operate or hold a mature discussion, so of course they will not be prioritized in an argument to make an important decision over a seasoned administrator. In a perfect world, 100% of your playerbase would be straight edged, truthful, willing to respect the opposing party - damn would that be great. Only then would we truly be able to completely hold a stable and 100% equal ground for discussion.

      Of course if you're the other 90% of players who are mature, just wanting to explain their side or issue, then of course we would absolutely uphold the fact that we want our staff team to give some sort of basis or reasoning on why that player is being disrespectful or unwilling. There's a reason for administrators and that's being the mediator to these contextual situations.
    6.
    • Everyone is free to say if you have a bad attitude or not, there's not a law that forbids users from calling out other users if they are being disrespectful or breaking the rules so long as it's within common courtesy. It's your decision as that reported party to think to yourself, "Am I being disrespectful or do I have a bad attitude?" and then decide if you want to falsify or ignore the claim.

      However, in terms of server administration, if you are found to have a bad attitude, 9 times out of 10 it's through breaking server rules - in which we hope our administrators uphold their duty by enforcing said rules. Golden is right again by saying the situations are contextual, if it's a conversation where no rules are being broken and an administrator just says, "You have a bad attitude" then of course the first paragraph applies where it's within yourself to evaluate that claim. We're not primary school or kindergarden where we have to babysit or mediate someones opinion on another person.
    7.
    • The rules written on our forums are to be followed by every registered account that utilizes any of our services. That includes all management, developers, admins, helpers, donators and users. The only difference is that management holds the right as... management.. to alter or change the rules and decide the punishments for said rules.

      But if on the 10th of April John_Doe, a regular joe gets punished for killing without reason - then yes - if on the 10th of April Jane_Doe, the administrator does the same thing - they are to be punished also. The only difference is that we do not publicly kick admins, they are dealt with through the staff team whether that be a demotion or removal. If it's a case for a server ban, well of course you'll see that.

      I think the form of context Golden means is that we hold our staff team to a super high standard here, so if we see them breaking server rules we really need to double check on what they done and why they done it. Doing that for all players who are only held to the standards set by the server rules would be inefficient because you can have Tom, Dick and Harry the serial rulebreakers just causing havock and we don't have the time in the world to sit them on the chair and have a 15 minute conversation as to why they done it. At the end of the day, it's not a perfect world - this is an internet community and the same outcome takes place.
    9.
    • I understand your point and I get why you've mentioned it because it's happened elsewhere. Listen, in a perfect world - if your IC character who is the leader just upped out and left a faction / gang / clique (Due to an OOC ban), then of course the story would continue on. The banned party so far will not have the opportunity to NPC their character still conducting business within the faction. The 2IC or council - whatever - would likely decide the replacement in those forthcoming weeks/months and the show would go on. Brilliant. End credits. But yet again, we're on a server. Even if we dedicate 95% of our time to combat OOC influences over IC factions and stories, it's literally impossible. In most cases the banned faction leader will have the 2IC friends or the council withhold any important storyline progression just to reserve the slot for when the individual gets unbanned. That's why Faction Management comes in before this can occur and where Golden is right in saying that they will likely interject, for that small brief moment, to make sure the faction moves forward.

      Of course administrators will not ban just to try and shut down a faction, that'll be caught out by the management team in the blink of an eye and dealt with under the clause of corruption given no proper reason. But we can't just "take a bet" on factions remaining completely IC during such a huge OOC event - it rarely happens, and that's in my good 10 years roleplaying experience. By all means Faction Management will be there briefly to help the rest of the players in said faction so they have equal opportunity to continue their stories. After all, if the ban is legitimate then it's the leaders fault. If it's not, then easy days - it can be appealed and likely handled within a week and nothing huge changes. I'm very sure Faction Management will post further information on this.
    10.
    • As I've mentioned above, in a perfect world this would be fantastic. Just let the faction sort themselves out - but in reality there are likely going to be unforeseen OOC influences dictated potentially by the banned faction leader and upheld by the unbanned (now) decision makers. Faction Management is there to simply ensure the process is smooth and that doesn't occur and I'm very sure they will have internal policies and procedures to make that transition and guidance as beneficial and smooth as possible to the remaining faction members.
To finish off, I get the thread and the tens of questions sent to our team - but please don't underestimate the experience we have here. We're not IMVU, nor are we the community you've come from. We're very community driven, passionate about hearing what people have to say and proud to utilize systems that actually work - so if for any reason you have that shade of doubt in your mind then it's only going to bring you personal quarrels in the future. Just relax, enjoy the ride and have fun playing - because anything else is not worth your time.
Lead Admin + Developer
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Curly The Infamous
Posts: 101
Joined: August 2018

Re: Rule Discussion & Questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:47 pm

Thanks for filling me in, I appreciate the thoroughness of your answers. See, I'm just trying to prevent the same stigmas, that's all. I'm not the first or the last person who had to ever deal with what I bring up. Thanks for bringing up GTAW, I wasn't going to bring it up but since you did, I'll use that as an example. On GTAW, I was banned for generally having a bad attitude. Ok, well they selected me to lead an official faction, before making that claim. They chose me to be a representative of that server. The same way admins are representatives of the server. I was a pioneer of the roleplay there. I was one of the players that stayed even when there was only 7 players online a day. I'm the same way for any server I usually wind up in. The people who banned me from LSRP are the same people who banned me from GTAW. So now the bias is what I'm trying to address. Leave ALL old qualms in old communities. (That's why I didn't bring it up.) Those 10 questions were the same 10 questions I asked Nervous, he got caught up contradicting the behavior of his staff through his answers. I'm asking in advance, so I know in advance, this way, there's no confusion as to whether or not this place is worth my time.

So it's good to ask these questions in advance, this way myself & the hundreds of others you guys will probably get sick of don't mess up accidentally lol. People should really just get over the attitude thing, because I'm not much different from anyone else. I'll always have proof of that claim. I create bomb ass factions, my attitude is not even relevant to that at all, since IC and OOC don't mix in my factions.

I'm going to PM you with an extended answer out of respect for this discussion. Thanks for clarifying all that.
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asset
Posts: 6
Joined: August 2018

Re: Rule Discussion & Questions

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm

From Property Rules
Q: I accidentally destroyed a player's vehicle after stealing it, what should I do?
A: Refund a reasonable amount of money to the victimized player. As you broke the property rule you may also be punished by an administrator, you should be careful when handling other player's properties.


So if I steal a car and get in a police chase which end up in the car getting destroyed, I will most likely be punished?
Aero
Posts: 41
Joined: June 2018

Re: Rule Discussion & Questions

Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:36 am

asset wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm
From Property Rules
Q: I accidentally destroyed a player's vehicle after stealing it, what should I do?
A: Refund a reasonable amount of money to the victimized player. As you broke the property rule you may also be punished by an administrator, you should be careful when handling other player's properties.


So if I steal a car and get in a police chase which end up in the car getting destroyed, I will most likely be punished?
This is something that we're discussing currently about this rule with that stuff, it will be modified most likely.

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